1998 P Wide AM with DDR?

[CCC]

This 98 Wide AM has a bar to the right of lincolns chair. I do beleive it is minor but a bar none the less. I thought I would share this find for I don't see many varieties on Wide AM.

[OCD]

Nice find. :) I found one about 2 months ago.

[CCC]

Nice find. :) I found one about 2 months ago.

I knew I had seen the post somewhere. I knew what to look for when and if I ever found 1. Did you have it attributed? Thanks for the reply.

[OCD]

Nah, Bob said it was too minor.

[1sgret]

Still a nice find and keeper for the stash for the both of you!!!!

[CCC]

Minor or not I agree with Joe. It's still a keeper for a rainy day. I was very surprised when I found it. Nice find Jeremy and thanks Joe

[OCD]

Definitely a keeper!! I've got it stashed with the 4 other 98 wide AMs I've found.

[CCC]

Definitely a keeper!! I've got it stashed with the 4 other 98 wide AMs I've found.

You go Jeremy. Now I need to find the 2000 to make the set complete.

[1sgret]

Well I did find two 2000 and one 1998 in a bag this past weekend. It's been a long time on the 2000's and that only makes 12 now.
The 98's are at 65 total and they and the 2000's are with J. Wexler to determine on the 98's which Die's they are or if they are new die's in the mix.
John Wexler has found 16 different dies for the 98's and he's hoping to find more in my pile.
No word on the 2000's as to how many dies there are.
He said it would be a long while before I get an answer as he is covered up on attributing coins and is going to look at mine in his spare (LOL) time.

[CCC]

Well I did find two 2000 and one 1998 in a bag this past weekend. It's been a long time on the 2000's and that only makes 12 now.
The 98's are at 65 total and they and the 2000's are with J. Wexler to determine on the 98's which Die's they are or if they are new die's in the mix.
John Wexler has found 16 different dies for the 98's and he's hoping to find more in my pile.
No word on the 2000's as to how many dies there are.
He said it would be a long while before I get an answer as he is covered up on attributing coins and is going to look at mine in his spare (LOL) time.

Joe,

Am I to understand that in 98 and 2000 that more than 1 ea. Reverse Die was used? When did the mint start putting the MM on Die using the Galvano?

David

[mustbebob]

David,
The thinking is that a box of proof reverse dies was brought out and all of them were used in 2000. That would make 24 different reverse dies. I would suspect the same thing happened in 1998. I believe there are 4 known Wide AM dies for 1999.
As far as the doubled die Wide AM in this post, is that an extra knee between his legs to go along with the tilted column bar??

[1sgret]

David,
The thinking is that a box of proof reverse dies was brought out and all of them were used in 2000. That would make 24 different reverse dies. I would suspect the same thing happened in 1998. I believe there are 4 known Wide AM dies for 1999.
As far as the doubled die Wide AM in this post, is that an extra knee between his legs to go along with the tilted column bar??

I went back and found the msg: He has identified 4 reverse so far for the 1999 and also 16 for the 2000's. Plus the 16 for the 1998's.

[legend]

I first found a 2000 Wide AM DDR some three years ago, and started accumulating them by buying all the Wide AM 2000 cents I could find. Then one day I bought ONE 1998 Wide AM, thinking."What if it also has a Doubled reverse?"
Sure enough, that one purchase confirmed it, as it was a DDR Wide AM 1998. I kept it under my hat, and kept on buying.
I am at 34 1998 Wide AM, and 350+ 2000 Wide AM. I strongly disagree with it being a minor variety. I have found it on multiple dies, and with polished inner ear wide AM's, die clashes, both high beard and low beard, die clash on the reverse, proof die markers OUT OF THIS WORLD on the reverse.
Of the 350, 45-50 are DDR, and I think that 1998 will be similar, a subset within itself.
What I do not know, and it'll be SWEET when someone finds out, is if ANY 1999 Wide AM has a DDR.
I have been asking, and no one has looked and found one. I expect to find.....1-3 total, if they exist.
As it is, with only 2000 or so year 2000 Wide AM out there, and only 50-100 DDR, it makes THIS COIN, the new three legged Buffalo.
That's why I buy them so feverishly. Good luck.:tinysmile_eyebrow_t
I think I have six dies thus far, and wow, 16...phwew....

[RWBILLER]

Hi
Good find - check out your obverse for phamtom "d's". If Have a few especially in 1998.
Thanks
Roger

[mustbebob]

Legend,
First of all, I am not aware of any 2000P Wide AM's with a DDR. Do you have a picture of the DDR?
Other than that, this next portion pertains to the 1998 Wide AM.
What criteria are you using to call the DDR anything more than minor?? I have a criteria for coppercoins.com that states what size the bar will be before I will list it on the site. If I listed every single tiny column bar, it would be impossible to try and attribute it, and there are literally hundreds of different minor column bars out there. Basically, the attributer decides what is too minor and what is not. We have to. It's not because we don't like you or your coin. We have to establish criteria, and in this case, it doesn't please you, but it is what it is.

As it is, with only 2000 or so year 2000 Wide AM out there, and only 50-100 DDR, it makes THIS COIN, the new three legged Buffalo.


As far as the above quote, your numbers are significantly off. There are at least 16 dies used on the 2000 Wide AMs. If we assume they only made it to Mid Die State, then there are approximate 8 MILLION 2000 wide AM's out there. We can also assume that there are around 500,000 DDRs. To say this coin is the new three legged buffalo seems more like wishful thinking. I do not see things such as die clashes, polishing, whatever this high/low beard reference is to, and other common things putting any realistic premium on these coins.

[legend]

When we newbies get stars in our eyes, we get blinded! I thank you for telling me how many Wide AM's might be out there, as I had no Idea. I'm willing to revises my ideas in accordance with you, the expert, because that way I can fully represent them at sale safely.
I have some 1998 Wide AM's with extra bars, and the bars are not like the ones on the 2000 wide AM, as they are to the left of the Lincoln. Some of the bars (I have about six of them) are almost half the length of the Lincoln statue...so is this a major or minor? Let me know so I can come down to earth on these, and not waste money chasing minor stuff that's marginally valuable.
So far as the doubled on the reverse of the 2000 Wide AM, if it is doubled and shows an extra bar, then it's a doubled die, I would think. Not withstanding that the bars are small, some coins are attributed with faint details, like the 1998 Wide AM with the phantom D, and there's a teens era Lincolns with phantom D's that sell for premiums as well.
Time will reveal the actual numbers of Wide AM's out there, but I am speculating that we have seen the majority of the truly premium Wide AM's surface, and what quality remains will be from unopened boxes and bags. On EBAY I missed TWO bags in three years, and very few boxes went by. XPDAN has two boxes right now, $154 a piece, but I only buy unopened.
Bob, how can we tell how many were produced?
Could we assume that because 20 dies were used, they wore the details off the dies pressing pennies.
If so many were minted, wouldn't they have surfaced in larger numbers?
Let me know so I can stop wasting money on not so rare , unattributable pennies.
Most of all, please LMK the criterion used in determining if these get attributed. I have seen lots of DDR with the column doubles, and these compare favorably with a number of them.

[mustbebob]

Legend,
First of all, I would think NOT collecting these would be a mistake. The other mistake would be to pay too much for them which is precisely why I wanted to throw a few numbers your way. All wide AMs, no matter how many were produced, are a mint error. The proof reverse dies were not supposed to be used for business strike coins.
The numbers I used are based on how many different dies have been positively identified. We know for a fact that at least 16 -1998 dies, 4 -1999 dies and 16 -2000 dies were used. We know this based on marker information we obtain from each die. Based on the averages from the US mint figures (total coins struck and the total number of dies used), we can estimate that a pair of dies can strike close to 1 million coins. ( I personally think that is too high, so I go with a lower number) Based on 750,000 coins from 1 set of dies, I can approximate that if a coin I examine is a mid-die-state coin, that approximately 500,000 of them might exist. Earlier die states would mean less...Late die state more.
Now...even though half a million might exist, it is about impossible to figure out how many are still in circulation, or in hoarded boxes, bags etc. We do base our prices on the error/variety, and the number reported. However, if I had reported that only 100 had existed, and the going rate was $25 per coin, and then someone who had 200 coins that were not reported puts them on the market, then there is a market glut, and prices can take a nose dive.
Now...your 2000 Wide AM DDRs that have a bar half the length of the statue may very well be one that I would put on the coppercoins site. You hit my criteria right on the head. I require them to be at least that long for inclusion.
On coppercoins.com however, the fact that it is a Wide AM, has a phantom D, or any other anomaly would merely be a marker for that coin. The variety (DDR) is the focal point on coppercoins. As of yet, we do not list Wide AMs, RDVs etc. We will be in the future. Hopefully, I have answered your questions. I do not want to discourage you from collecting these things....Just the opposite. I just want you, and all others who might read this to know that numbers and the words 'scarce' and 'rare' are normally used very loosely...especially on EBAY. Education is everything. If you know about what it is you want, you can make an informed decision on how much you are willing to pay for something. On the other hand, some folks will pay just about anything to add a coin to their collection. Those folks are few and far between.

[legend]

It's great to get experts in the field. I was just guessing on the half the length of the Lincoln, what a thing! I noticed, though, that some other DDR with slivers of a bar that are much less than half the size of the Lincoln are recognized, so I am just keeping all of them till it's pretty much settled where the production numbers are going to be, nearabouts. Then again, that 1969 S that popped up reminds me how fast this market gets made, these coins..
I cannot tell you how much the data is appreciated, and at some point when I get cash, I will get a camera, and all can share in my finds like you share yours with everyone else, for posterity. Thanks again, and I cannot wait to post them!!:)

[mustbebob]

Thanks for the kind words. I should probably expand a little bit on the coppercoins criteria for column bar cents. They should be about half the length of the statue. If the column bar is pretty thick, it would probably be included on the site because it indicates a wider spread. You are correct in that there are what appear to be minor bars listed. In most of those cases, there are other things that make it listable. They may be doubled feet, knees, or legs.
I can add that I will always look at a particular coin, and make my decision to list it or not based on what's there. Sometimes, there are other things that make it listable. Another primary reason for the criteria is to save the collector some money by not paying for attributions that might end up being too minor to list.
Getting a camera to be able to post pics is always a great idea. The folks here and on other forums can generally give you an idea on if it's listable based on that pic.