1909 p reverse cud

[koinmon]

A friend of mine brought this tom to see what it may be worth, I said since it's a 1909 it could be wouth much more than most CUDS. Is this cud a listed Cud? A retained CUD? Large CUD and small CUD on the "o".

[RWBILLER]

That is not a CUD - a cud is on the rim. looks like extra substance or die break on he strike?
roger

[koinmon]

Thanks Roger I didn't realize cuds were limited to the rim; 50 years and still learning.

[brwnprkns]

That is not a CUD - a cud is on the rim. looks like extra substance or die break on he strike?
roger

So a cud is a die break at the rim that results in extra metal on one side like my Avatar?
Or is a cud the result of a die crack and a die break just larger?:tinysmile_hmm_t:

[fugnchill]

I thought this looked more like a struck in metal piece or possibly the beginning of a mount to make it a jewelry piece.

I've always thought of it in this order: Die Crack, Die Break, rim-to-rim crack, rim-to-rim break, retained broken die, CUD (once the broken die piece fell away).
So on a center broken die, after the piece falls away it's still not a cud?

Lestrrr

[JeanK]

"The Error Coin Encyclopedia", by Arnold Margolis and Fred Weinberg states:

"The cud error itself is the result of a die failure. When a die crack forms in the die metal, that crack is aggravated by successive strikes. In each strike the planchet metal is forced into the die crack, and it acts like a wedge. The power of the strike and the wedging action of repeated strikes, causes the die to fail. This failure consists of a segment of the die actually breaking away, leaving a void in the die face. It should be noted that for these discussions the die break will always include a portion of the rim area of that die design. The broken away segment will always carry a portion of the rim area design of that die with it.

All coins struck by that defective die will have an area on the struck coin which has not been shaped into a coin design, since the die was missing that part. The "unstruck" area of the coin will retain the unformed shape of the Type Two blank planchet with the upset rim. It is this unformed area which is the "cud" about which we speak.

The cud error will always occur starting at the rim at some point, and extend inward on the coin's surface, and then return to the rim at another point. I can happen on either the obverse or reverse dies."

This is a partial text of information about how the "cud" was first 'discovered' and researched and written about many years ago. If you get a chance to obtain this book it will be of great help in determining just about anything to do with error coins. It also has a great number of black and white photographs which show the errors.

My thanks and admiration to these gentlemen and all who write the books I use as reference material to improve my coin searching skills.
Jean

[brwnprkns]

Thank You Jean