1970-S Double Die

[MintyFresh]

I found a few of these in a roll that I have been hanging on to. Has anyone seen this type of DDO before?

Okay - can't get the link to work. PLease check out my album. I just goy started this morning and have lots of interesting DD and mint errors.


http://www.lincolncentresource.net/forums/album.php?albumid=175&pictureid=2037

[jhracing08]

sorry looks like MD

[jcuve]

Classic machine doubling (with that flat shelf like doubled appearance)
Common on late sixties and early seventies issues on the date and LIBERTY
Extra obvious as the doubled appearance occurs equally and in the same direction on the mintmark.

[MintyFresh]

sorry looks like MD
Thank for the really brier and to the point opinion. I am not looking to boost my ego but just understand what it is I actually have -- aka "learning". I have nearly a whole roll of these. The attribute is repeated exactly on each coin, thus, repeatiblity.

After reading your brief but uninformative remark I found this explanation,

"A doubled die, irregardless of the classifiction, is doubling that is created during the die making process. It happens when a hub - having a positive image of the design (like the finished coin) - is pressed (hubbed) into a blank die on a press. It often takes several 'hubbings' do get the negative image of the design fully pressed into the softened die. If the die and hub do not remain perfectly aligned between hubbings, a doubled negative image of the design elements can occur on the die. Thus, every coin struck with the doubled die will have the same doubled image http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41346 (http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41346))."

As a manufacturing eningeer I understand this. I also like to learn about the finesse of understanding die and mint errors to better enjoy collecting. I posted this in hopes of etting better repsonses to better understand.

Your shallow reply is why I have avoided these forums. This is not where I care to demonstrate my manhood.

[hasfam]

yep....agreed. MD.

Rock

[MintyFresh]

That makes sense. The "liberty" does show the same flat appeance, but on the left rather than on the right of the feature. So, from what I am understanding, there should be a doubling on the date in two directions? Confusing.

[MintyFresh]

So, is what I've got collectable? I found it interesting but is it worth my time further? I mean, for the momen it is cool, but should I now just put it into circulation or what?

[kloccwork419]

Its nice to keep one for comparing with others. So you can understand what MD looks like.

[MintyFresh]

Thanks! I pick the best out of the group.

[jcuve]

The mintmark was added to the die after it was made, thus, if the die is doubled than the mintmark shouldn't (in almost all cases) exhibit the same doubling. Starting in 1990 that is not longer the case as the mintmark was incorporated into the designs and added to the galvano.

Is it junk? The more searching you do the more you'll find MDD on lots and lots of coins and realize unless it is breathtakingly massive, you'll just ignore them. I would suggest buying a few cheap DDs from reliable sources to have on hand and study. Seeing first hand MDD vs DD starts to make [cents].

And I should add, welcome to the forum!

[1sgret]

Welcome to the Forum and enjoy it.

[uglycent]

machine doubling can be repeditive considering the blanks are feed at the same rate and angle into a machine that may produce the same harmonic in the blank each strike causing the same strike over a series of strikes.

[MintyFresh]

That is great advice. I shall do that. I wasn't very interested in DD's until I came across some old dimes Roosevelt dimes with doubled-d's. I was perplexed why I didn't see these on the PCGS charts, etc. Now I undertand why. Then, when i began to pay attention, I began to see [MSs] everywhere! lol.

I do have some classsic DDOs and DDRs, thoughha and am going toget them off to PCGS soon. I understand my mistake with the MDs. Thank goodness I didn't pay for them that I do have. They were fun while they lasted :-)

I shall do what you day concerning purchasing a few cheep genuine DD's. Years ago I deliberately bought a few counterfit coins so I would know one when I saw it (in the wild) to guard against any unscrupelistic seller I might come accross.

The problem here in Lousiana is I haven't found a dealer yet who is willing to take the time to help guide you, and won't hesitate to take advantage of the novice. I showed the MDs to two here and both kept thier mouth shut.

I'll wait until I get back up to Fort Worth. Got some great ethical advice from the folks up there.

Thanks for your good advice.

[MintyFresh]

Thank make 'cents'. I understand the automatic injection of the blanks. That kind'a confusded me when I saw posts metioning the repeate attributes as being one of the conditions of a double-die classification. I now undertand where the doubling actually occuring. I was just a bit on edge (too much coffee) when I blasted-back at the very simplistic comment; I mean, why bother commenting at all?

I actually l learned a lot for the posts today. I am much more [less head in the clouds] than I was before. I am glad I joined the this group... lots more fun ahead.

[JeanK]

Welcome to LCR Minty Fresh!
I too have seen the short and snappy reply to some of my posts, but the worse I have received is no reply at all. Yep, I got over the slapshot real quick when I was able to post a fantastic find and get lots of praise. ): So keep posting because we dearly love pictures of coins.
Jean

[1jackel1]

even though it is MD, i still like them and have collected allot of then from 68 to 74. People still buy them though, so i would keep it for sure.


George

[MintyFresh]

Welcome to LCR Minty Fresh!
I too have seen the short and snappy reply to some of my posts, but the worse I have received is no reply at all. Yep, I got over the slapshot real quick when I was able to post a fantastic find and get lots of praise. ): So keep posting because we dearly love pictures of coins.
Jean
Oh, I am over it Jean - thanks. Those pics took a couple of hours - trying to aim an auto focus camera through a jewler's loupe, while at the same time keep it aligned and in focus, with the right light to get the intended attribute. It is amazing how our eyes can focus in on what exactly we are seeing, and filtering just the right amount of light for that perfect "snapshot". Amazing....

Oh did I mention, while doing that acrobatic juggle - trying NOT to mess up the coin, lol.

Thanks for the reply

[MintyFresh]

even though it is MD, i still like them and have collected allot of then from 68 to 74. People still buy them though, so i would keep it for sure.


George
Thanks for the input. I have roughly 400 of them from many types of coins, and dates. Almost all are proof, of better MS, 65 +.

I thought of an idea on how to enjoy them more. I will simply look for others, such as myself (and you, of course), who think that they are interesting. After all , isn't that what collecting coins is all about? Each error, each mishap, or that added gift of a cool rainbow, is a story that coin is trying to tell about its journey.

I once had a 1909-S v.d.b. MS-64'ish, and it didn't give me the pleasure that finding these do. Sure, I enjoyed selling it for $3,200, but I have both bought and sold many a coin...

I have a 1960 proof die-crash Franklin - what a story it tells... the pooling of coolant is still quite evident on the obverse; the reverse is a MD nightmare. Way too cool. I doubt I'll ever give it up.

Thanks for the encouragement.

[corroded]

None of them are junk, son. Keep them. Make sets if anything at all.
They are BU! Don't get discouraged at these replies. To show you
why here's mine---"yep, MD"

[Brian B.]

The best thing to do Minty Fresh is check out some of the great pictures of DDs on this site and others, out of all the coins I've searched though, I've only have one true DD in my collection, a 1995 Philly DDO I found back in 95.

[coppercoins]

The most important thing about machine doubling versus hub doubling isn't really the repeatability - while it is ONE factor, the most important factor is that once you get adjusted to what hub doubling looks like, it really looks nothing like machine doubling. It's the characteristics in itself that makes the real difference, and the point to study.

Machine doubling always has that flattened, hammered down look, because that's - well - exactly what it is. It has a stepped-down, shelf-like appearance because the field next to the letters, etc. partially flattens down the side of the letters, etc. when the die hits the coin a second time.

A doubled die is completely different because the doubling is actually on the die itself and does not involve a second hit from the die to the coin. All of the doubling has 'character', is rounded like the normal letters, and often has notching at the corners of the affected letters where the corner of one hubbing didn't meet the corner of another hubbing. It looks a whole lot like rubber stamping a piece of paper, then trying to match up the first stamping with a second one. You almost never hit the mark exactly, and if you look at the corners of any of the affected letters, there will be a notch in the corner where the two stampings didn't match up perfectly.

Machine doubling in rubber stamp terms would be much more like pressing the stamp onto the paper, then dragging it to the side slightly smearing the ink. No notches, no real doubling, just a smudge.

[coppercoins]

Here's a quick diagram I just drew to illustrate the points I made in my last post. Study this and reread the post above, and it should all make sense. Beyond all this, it is best to buy a doubled die to see the effects and how it clearly differs from machine doubling.

http://www.coppercoins.com/temp/diagram_of_doubling.jpg

[AgCollector]

Here's a quick diagram I just drew to illustrate the points I made in my last post. Study this and reread the post above, and it should all make sense. Beyond all this, it is best to buy a doubled die to see the effects and how it clearly differs from machine doubling.



That's a fantastic sketch- thanks for sharing!

[corroded]

A sketch like this should have a place in every reference book. Patent it, copywrite it, sign it Chuck. I think it's a very fine reference piece.

[corroded]

I hardly ever join in congratulating people on their finds. I am not a person big on sitting in a classroom and waving my arm just to say "me too! That's what I was going to say!" You all make great photos, especially JeanK, and I sit here and see them and say "great find Maynard", "Good eye, Raymond" to all who make these major finds. I have a large 4 acre yard, I mow it, trim it, labor over it, sweat over it.
Wheel tracks are evenly spaced and straight. I say "Jan, look how great this yard mowed up today?" No comment. Never a comment. So, I mow for myself now and
look at it and say "great job Bill". Maybe she likes it. I like to thing she does. So, send in your photos! Bill likes them, he just doesn't say much.

[MintyFresh]

Here's a quick diagram I just drew to illustrate the points I made in my last post. Study this and reread the post above, and it should all make sense. Beyond all this, it is best to buy a doubled die to see the effects and how it clearly differs from machine doubling.

http://www.coppercoins.com/temp/diagram_of_doubling.jpg
Well I am glad there was a wreck on the frewway this morning... I turned around after an hour in one place.

You sketch is fantastic! It is exactly what we needed. I totally understand the concept now. Very exciting.

Thanks for sharing...

[coppercoins]

I could easily refine this diagram and be more exact with the details...like I said, this was literally a ten minute sketch that conveys concept without cleanliness, but I do appreciate the comments.

I guess for that matter I could also go into the 'signs' of different classes of hub doubling using a single device like with this drawing.

[jcuve]

Chuck your drawings are nice and they are helpful in understanding the differences. Might I suggest taking them further and adding them to Coppercoins.com? I think they would be helpful...

[mustbebob]

Hey Bill.... Nice looking yard!!! :D:D:D

[corroded]

AWWWWwwww.....! Yea, I reckon

[RWBILLER]

Hi:
Nice diagram
good night
roger

[coppercoins]

I posted the same diagram in a new thread so that more people might discover and read it. Where it is in this thread is not the best place for maximum exposure, and although it does answer the question asked at the beginning of the thread, it does sort of hijack the thread. So let's steer all future traffic about my educational post to the following thread, and let's keep this thread about Mintyfresh's 1970S coin.

Thanks!

http://www.lincolncentresource.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5507