1934 ddo "fs-013.79"

[Brad]

Our next controversial Variety is the 1934 ddo listed in the CPG as FS-013.79. This is an opportunity for you to give your opinion. Is this a doubled die???

[mustbebob]

Overlays seem to be pretty conclusive. I hve no doubt.

[corroded]

You ask the hardest questions. Brad!!

[1sgret]

I have to go with the current findings that it is a DDO and I would really like to find one for my collection. However with just two found, it will be a longshot, and wishful thinking.

[eaxtellcoin]

I think it's good. Been looking for that one for years! every time I pick up the "D" for an RPM, I pull these two. Never seen one yet!

[grnwavdav]

I'm not an expert but I have no doubt. It is a doubled die in my humble opinion. Does anyone own one?

[mustbebob]

Joe,
I am pretty sure there are much more that just 2 of these found. I remember about 3 years ago, seeing 5 for sale on Ebay at the same time.

[1sgret]

Joe,
I am pretty sure there are much more that just 2 of these found. I remember about 3 years ago, seeing 5 for sale on Ebay at the same time.

Ouch!!!! Now how did I miss that????????:(

[Brad]

PCGS shows 4 certified examples. 3 MS64RB's and 1 AU58. Some of those may be resubmissions.

[mikediamond]

Another possibility is a Type II counterclash.

[jcuve]

For the most part I agree this looks like a possible doubled die. Of course I wanted to play devil’s advocate and I started really thinking about it and now have a few reservations.

There isn’t a lot of information out on it; I see it listed as a class IV; and there are some nice overlays that seem convincing. My problem starts with class IV. Most class IVs are centralized, with a few being near the edges. When it as the edges it is usually in multiple places and evenly hubbed. The ’34 in question is not. If the conical shaped die was pressed parallel once, massively off-center, to the point where an impression was made of the outer digits, we should see doubling somewhere else and the digits should be evenly hubbed. If anything, the inner part of the digits should exhibit stronger doubling (like 1909 DDO-001) but with the ’34 it is the outer part that is showing. So, while I am not an attributer or an expert, just a collector, to me, it seems it has to be a class VIII + class IV or V – with emphasis on class VIII tilted hub doubling.

From the information I gathered it seems dies are at a 22° angle toward the center. I made a conical shaped die out of play dough and used a large plastic coin and pressed them together various ways. To create an image from the outer part of the hub required more and more of an angle, further still to capture the outer part of the date digits. In the end I had the pitched part of the die parallel to the hub face. This seems rather extreme. Maybe I am looking at wrong, but I did a (non-scientific) drawing of a die with an approximate 22° angle, scanned it and added the doubled outer digits from a picture of the ’34, in the vicinity of where they probably were located. (See below) and another drawing showing the die tilted so the pitched side is parallel to the hub. It looks improbable…but then I thought about 1963D DDO-001…

The 1963D DDO-001 is supposed to be class VIII, I do not know of anything written that explains the degree the die was likely tilted – I do think looking at the shape of the 3 on the ‘63D, knowing the die was tilted helps explain the shape of the 3 that remains. Maybe it explains the ’34…maybe it doesn’t…


To state quickly what my second problem is why is this DDO so hard to find with no hypothesis generated as to its rarity. (I was thinking of mentioning a counter clash as another possibility that would help explain why there are so few found. I see while writing this Mike Diamond chimed in and already suggested it.)




http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1934with_die.jpg


http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/tilted-die.jpg

[DoubleYou]

It is beyond coincidence. The evidence shows a 9 and 3 below the date. This might be a Pivoted plus Tilted hub doubled die (class V + VIII). It also could be a MAD counterclash, but the doubling is so well pronounced that I favor the doubled die theory.

Lee Day, the discoverer, sure finds the strangest ones!

[dvn]

I have it listed in my files exhibiting "9" and "3" remnants.

Billy (dvn)

[DoubleYou]

When I said "pronounced," I was not saying full. They are indeed remnants, but they are even remnants. They are not marked by steep inclines and jagged spots, but more even and "pronounced."

[WaterSport]

PCGS shows 4 certified examples. 3 MS64RB's and 1 AU58. Some of those may be resubmissions.

It is IMHO what I would call the most extreme DDO. While the 55 is suppose to be the holder of the title, my vote goes to the 34.

I know a guy who just bought a 65 Red example so that PCGS pop report should change soon unless it only graded 64 R&B. This will make the 4th he has owned.

WS

[jcuve]

I would really like to photograph this particular '34...if anyone has one, I'll pay shipping/insurance to and from - I would really like to make my own personal analysis...

BTW - if you respond, this thread is pretty old, so read all the posts...