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jcuve
11-18-2009, 01:23 PM
(All of the information is also at ErrorVariety.com (http://www.errorvariety.com))

Machine Doubling (Damage) (MD or MDD):

Below is a close-up illustration of Machine Doubling (MD) found on the reverse of a 1983P Lincoln cent (top) and then a close-up of doubling found on the Doubled Die Reverse listed as DDR-001 (1-R-IV) (bottom). Notice the flattened out manifestation of the MD; the irregular appearance; and change in physical characteristics of the doubled area. Compare to the rounded and raised true doubling of the Doubled Die (bottom).

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/MDD_b2.jpg

Machine Doubling has been designated with two types: Push Type and Slide Type (showcased in a new post down below). MD Push Doubling is extremely common and has hypothetically been suggested as a product of a loose hammer or anvil die, after the strike with some of the original energy of the strike transferred, there is a rebound and a shift that sends the die back down, typically in a slightly altered position where it subsequently hits the design on the coin and pushes it down. The result is a flat, shelf like area of the design that appears to differing degrees as being doubled.

This is a reductive process that is opposite of Die Variety Doubling and some forms of Error Doubling in that part of the design is altered or lost whereas Variety Doubling the doubling adds to the size of the device in question.

MD can impact as little as one letter or whole parts of the coin. It can be random or mimic classes of Doubled Dies in appearance. If the mintmark is doubled similarly to the date, odds are very high it is MD. One must remember mintmarks were added to the die AFTER they were impressed with a HUB. What that means is the die is doubled BEFORE the mintmark was punched into the die. This is true for all denominations of coins until 1989 as the Mint stopped punching mintmarks in 1990.

The illustration below shows a 1989 Lincoln that has MD on the date, the ear, the Y in LIBERTY and part of the coat. You can see the push down was only partial and at first glance almost looks like doubling. The area in blue (MD2) on the date represents the compressed area and along with the preceding graphic (MD3) shows how the doubled areas, if removed, cut down the size of the device and make it irregular. The illustration of 1989P 1DO-005, a Class VI Doubled Die with extra thickness in the date, and 1972P DDO-00, a very strong Class I, offers a contrast to the MD in that the doubling adds to the normal size of existing devices and remains rounded.

(MD4) is a close up of the flattened area of the 8 that also shows metal flow lines from the MD impact. At the bottom, 1909P DDO-001 shows class IV doubling RTY in the form of separated images. While not as rounded as some examples, the serifs technically are notched and there is no loss in size of the primary device as in the example (MD5) with MD on the Y (to the left).
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1989MDDcopy.jpg
Terminology:
Machine Doubling is sometimes called by a seller or a buyer as: strike doubling, machine doubling damage, sheer type doubling, mechanical doubling, ejection doubling, field doubling, shelf doubling, double date, and erroneously as a Double Strike or a Doubled Die.

EBay:
there is currently no place where doubling and its many forms are more confused, through ignorance and deception than eBay. The abundance of readily available information that accurately explains Varieties and Errors is seemingly outmatched by the ignorant, misguided buyers and equally ignorant or dishonest sellers who peddle garbage. The auction titles and descriptions often contain inaccuracies or made up terms such as: double dies, double dyes, double dates, double die date, DDO strike variety, mechanical DDO type, doubled date obverse, etc. Most often sellers are only able to describe what they see as “doubling” and generally know very little if anything about types of doubling or classes of Doubled Dies. Another range of auctions try and take the ’55 poorman’s double die (PMDD), a misnomer, and further apply that term to coins with MD on the ‘69S or ‘72P. In other instances the seller offers a coin as a possible Doubled Die or double die with a question mark (??) at the end of the auction title. In cases like this the sellers will offer vague descriptions, sometimes poor photos of coins with MD or DDD and make the promise of the buyer either getting potential high value coin for very little or some sort of glory as the discoverer if, you the buyer, submit the coin for authentication later. All hogwash designed to deceive buyers into buying a worthless coin.

Below are more views of MD. Here we have three different 1983 Lincolns that all exhibit varying degrees of MD and all could easily be sold on eBay as DDRs. They are contrasted by two 1983 DDRs: DDR-001 and DDR-002. The Double Dies are rounded with distinct secondary images while all the examples of MD show compressed metal and the reduction in size of the effected device. The memorial, the O in ONE and parts of UNITED are very frequently doubled by MD on any and every year of Lincoln cent. DDRs very rarely show doubling on the memorial itself, and it is always rounded.
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/MDD_a.jpg

There is nothing as classic as the classic Machine Doubling found on 1969S Lincoln cents. Many collectors have thought they hit the coin-lotto by finding a very common machine doubled BU cent while roll searching. The key typically is that the mintmark 'S' also has MD.
Below the '69S is a another classic example of flattened, shelf-like MD on a 1941S Lincoln.

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/MD05.jpg

This final set of illustrations shows typical MD found on the reverse of many Lincoln cents. Flattened areas with no notches and a reduction in the size of the devices. Compare the "of" with MD to that found on 2004P DDR-001 or 1964P DDR-001 which has notches, clear separation lines, rounded doubling and extra thickness.

Below that is a case of isolated MD on Lincoln's chin, compared to doubling found on 1971S DDO-002. Doubled Dies with doubling of Lincoln's profile are very rare while profile doubling from MD is rather common.

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/MD06.jpg

Brad
11-18-2009, 01:39 PM
AMAZING tutorial and pics. I love it!

mustbebob
11-18-2009, 05:49 PM
I don't see the pics. What happened?

jcuve
11-18-2009, 06:04 PM
I don't see the pics. What happened?

It's my server, my whole site is down(!!!!). The company is having problem after problem.:(

I'll upload them to Photobucket and repost the pics...

hasfam
11-18-2009, 07:29 PM
Excellent Jason. I'm sure this will help a lot of people.

Rock

corroded
11-19-2009, 09:46 AM
That was beautifly done! Could you take all this and see that it's printed in all coin
publications? Would sure clear up a lot of problems collectors, buyers and sellers
have. That was well written!!! I still like to collect them and make sets. That's fun,
also. Thank you.

Bill

kkady
11-19-2009, 10:47 AM
Thank you for your time well spent! That is ALOT OF WORK. Great pics and explainations. I got alot out of your lesson. Can't wait to get home and hit the rolls!!

hasfam
11-19-2009, 11:05 AM
Now if there was a way to plaster it all over ebay.

Rock

jcuve
11-22-2009, 12:19 PM
At first glance the doubling on the 1974S proof mimics a light Class 1 spread.

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/MD-Proof01.jpg

A closer examination demonstrates a lack of notching, no rounded doubling (rather a flat doubling near the field) and a slight surface change in the doubled areas. Machine Doubling is doubly confirmed when there is also MD on the mintmark below...

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/MD-Proof02.jpg

jcuve
11-27-2009, 12:19 AM
Below are more photos of Machine Doubling (MD):



This first example would probably throw an inexperienced roll searcher into a foaming DDR frenzy - at first glance, it has it all: doubling all over the motto, pseudo separation lines, and even on the memorial to boot! What is missing of course, is (again) extra thickness, split serifs (notching) and rounded doubling. What we have instead is flattened out areas that cut into the size of the normal devices.


http://www.errorvariety.com/OFD/images/MD-rev.jpg

It cannot be reiterated more, terms used on eBay to sell Machined Doubling, Die Deterioration Doubling and Other Forms of Doubling typically have no numismatic meaning - such as "double date," or when someone types in something that sounds like an the utterance from Haley Joel Osment in The Sixth Sense..."I see doubling!"

MD & DDD happens on all years and denominations...including Lincoln Wheat reverses. Two examples follow:

http://www.errorvariety.com/OFD/images/MD-WH.jpg

lineop3
12-28-2009, 03:26 PM
jcuve, I agree with kkady, and corroded! As a beginner myself, I finally understand it! Thanks for the ABC lesson. Now to tackle my bank rolls. LOL.

rockdude
12-29-2009, 10:06 PM
Very nice, I love it. Thanks

DWK
12-29-2009, 10:23 PM
Jason: You have outdid yourself. Fantastic. A really big help.

Gradually I am getting better. I believe it comes only with lots of practice along with really good examples to reference such as these.

I still have some trouble with certain recognized Doubled dies that are very subtle and look the same as MD to me. So I still often also mistake MD for legit doubling.

Thats when I need help such as you, Bob and others so graciously provide.

Thanks again, from all of us.

Dave Kearns

jcuve
12-30-2009, 12:18 PM
Glad to see it has been useful!

celartu
05-27-2010, 07:36 PM
Jason : This is a great contribution, thank you very much

jcuve
08-04-2010, 10:06 PM
Machine Doubling:
SLIDE TYPE
Below are photos of Machine Doubling (MD) Slide Type
(coin courtesy Mike Diamond of CONECA)



http://www.errorvariety.com/OFD/images/2001D%20MD_Slide_a.jpg

http://www.errorvariety.com/OFD/images/2001D%20MD_Slide_c.jpg

http://www.errorvariety.com/OFD/images/2001D%20MD_Slide_b.jpg

jcuve
08-04-2010, 10:11 PM
Strong example of Machine Doubling:

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1992P-MD-ma-01LCR.jpg

Another strong example: 1916
(a combination of Push Type AND Slide Type)

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1916_MD_Slide-aLCR.jpg

jcuve
08-04-2010, 10:19 PM
Another strong 1992 with MD:

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1992-MD_a.jpg

With an overlay:

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1992-MD_b.jpg

MD on two examples of a 1957D (same die)

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1957D-MD01_b.jpg

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1957D-MD01_a.jpg

copperlover
08-04-2010, 10:46 PM
It is clear that the amount of MD submitted, warrants some publication that could clarify this type of occurence. Jason I think it is time for you
to start a book showing the different types of doubling. Your work so far is awsome.

Lucien

jcuve
08-04-2010, 10:48 PM
MD on the reverse of a 1863 Indian Head Cent:

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1863IHC_MDa.jpg

MD on the obverse of a 2008 Washington Quarter:

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/2008WashQu_MDa.jpg

Cdiddle
08-06-2010, 07:34 AM
Personally, I can not say thank you enough. I've been having soooo much trouble with doubles. This clearly explained AND shows the difference. Thank you for all the hard work of presenting this.
Cindy

JeanK
08-06-2010, 10:50 AM
Learning something new everyday is very important, and Jason has gone above and beyond as a great teacher.
Thank You Jason!
Jean

Darylscoins
08-06-2010, 10:09 PM
this is what we all need to understand more of the the types of doubling there really are,,, (MD) Next is the types of hub doubling.. this was very informative and detail pics OUTSTANDING!

jcuve
08-10-2010, 11:58 AM
Another quick example of MD happens to have occurred on this 1958D that has a curious Die Chip on the 1 of the date. LCR member Colleen Davis (Shameless) sent me two examples showing the progression of the Die Chip ( A and B below) and how on the later example the Die Chip has Machine Doubling along with parts of Lincoln's portrait.

Oddly, a coin from the same die, on page 342 of The Error Coin Encyclopedia 4th edition (Margolis & Weinberg 2004); they state, "It is usually called the 'r958D' cent" as the r looks like a typed lower case r.

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1958D_MDaEV.jpg

Jim
01-26-2011, 09:46 PM
Wow! Now this was a killer tutorial and so well explained. I have read allot of books and you made this plain and simple. Huge Kudo's and a big thank you Jason.

Jim

jcuve
03-20-2011, 11:02 AM
A recent example sent to me by Eric (eaxtellcoin) is a 1966 with somewhat strong MD on the reverse that mimics a partial Class IV (Off-set) spread. The closeup of "S of" shows (white arrows) the absence of notching, and (red arrows) the way the apparent doubling cuts into the size and shape of the normal devices (letters).

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww322/jcuve/1966MDa.jpg

busyeye
05-18-2011, 02:46 PM
Seriously, these are the best pics and tutorial. What helps is the clarity of the color. wish I could take pics like that. Thank you.

phjr1956
07-30-2011, 06:54 PM
Your dedication and knowledge are a real asset to all of us "uneducated"....Thank you!

Voyager17
12-05-2011, 07:03 AM
Very Educational indeed.Great Job on the Article,Sir! God Bless!

EgCollector
02-06-2012, 05:36 PM
Machine Doubling has been designated with two types: Push Type and Slide Type (showcased in a new post down below). MD Push Doubling is extremely common and has hypothetically been suggested as a product of a loose hammer or anvil die, after the strike with some of the original energy of the strike transferred, there is a rebound and a shift that sends the die back down, typically in a slightly altered position where it subsequently hits the design on the coin and pushes it down. The result is a flat, shelf like area of the design that appears to differing degrees as being doubled.

This is a reductive process that is opposite of Die Variety Doubling and some forms of Error Doubling in that part of the design is altered or lost whereas Variety Doubling the doubling adds to the size of the device in question.


First i would like to thank you very much for this great lesson..... i finally can differentiate between both or at least i think i can ;)

I have a question regarding the cause of the doubling ..... for the MD i understand the cause but for the DD, how can a lost part of the die add the same shape and size of the date ? Hope you pardon my ignorance but i thought that DD would be a result of hitting the coin twice... if you could explain it more to me, i would appreciate it very much.

Thanks

jcuve
02-06-2012, 06:07 PM
First i would like to thank you very much for this great lesson..... i finally can differentiate between both or at least i think i can ;)

I have a question regarding the cause of the doubling ..... for the MD i understand the cause but for the DD, how can a lost part of the die add the same shape and size of the date ? Hope you pardon my ignorance but i thought that DD would be a result of hitting the coin twice... if you could explain it more to me, i would appreciate it very much.

Thanks

I'm not sure what you mean by DD, do you mean Doubled Die (Hub Doubling) or a Double Strike? A Double Strike is easy as it is creating by two (or more) separate strikes from a die, whereas MD is created by some of the extra energy from a single strike where the Die Face bounces or vibrates up and down or in some rare cases drifts sideways.

A Doubled Die is created from the Hub, which is a positive (and looks like a struck coin), that has been misaligned in a subsequent hubbing (or moved during a single hubbing - post '97). The positive parts of the Hub stick out and create impressions (incuse) into the Die Face; in essence holes or cavities replicating the design. In the hubbing process once you create an incuse area, adding to that incuse area within the area of the fields always makes the design a little larger. You can experiment with this by making impressions of a coin in clay (or play-dough) and then turning or offset the coin and making another impression.

I hope I am answering your question...

EgCollector
02-07-2012, 03:33 AM
You certainly did :) and by DD i meant Double Die as a word but Double strike as a meaning so you actually explained double strike and taught me Double Die :)

Thank you Jason very much

strwrght53
02-07-2012, 11:29 AM
excellent photos expertly illustrated can't help but learn from them...thanks

wapa
02-07-2012, 11:54 AM
Hey Jason, being fairly new at this coin stuff it might help to explain how and what a DD (bad name) hub doubling is caused. (I may have missed the explanation in the new section.) My understanding is that DD or hub doubling is caused when making or re-stamping the die itself and has nothing to do with striking the coin. Whereas MD is caused when the coin is actually struck. What is the best way to talk about hub doubling? Does saying a DD create confusion? I know until I researched terms I was confused. Double dies has been such a standard for so long. We reference things like DDO or DDR etc.

This brings up a question is once a die goes into or back into service what is the life of the die? I guess if there is a a die that is damaged and creating a hub doubled coin how many coins would be made until it is taken out of service? I imagine there is some QC during the striking and if there is a damaged die that it would be taken out of service in short order. Hence making that damaged coin that much more valuable. I guess the question would be is do you know how many coins that would be struck before the die is taken out of service for repairs or out of service permanently? I mean just a guess. There must be a ton of reasons for a die to be taken out of service before is normal use life. I guess I am just wondering if there is like 1000 coins struck to 50,000 coins struck or??? :LOL_Hair: I hope I understand some of this stuff anyway and it all makes some sense.